Please save me!
I want to believe but no one has been able to make a sound enough case for believing in their religion.
Can you?
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I want to believe but no one has been able to make a sound enough case for believing in their religion.
Can you?
IMO, this post sounds more like a mocking than someone who really wants to know, but I’m going to respond as if you’re serious. If you truly want to have an intellectual reason to be an atheist or agnostic, then you should fully be aware of what the “opposition” believes by reading intellectual and educated thoughts of those who have faith in religion, and, in this case, Christianity. I feel that I don’t need to re-invent the wheel so-to-speak. I believe because it’s logical for me to believe… period. I feel others make a stronger case for faith than I can. Atheism was never on my radar and is so relative that it is difficult to find any objective point from which to discuss anything that doesn’t end up sounding ridiculous to me.
Here is a link to a thorough summary of why I’m a Catholic Christian. I haven’t read the entire thing (because reading puts me to sleep!) but I think you’ll find it answers the question you’re asking here, if you are, in fact, serious. I’ve also posted some excerpts on my blog that argue for the existence of God, in case you’re interested.
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/aquinas/summa.toc.html
Don’t forget about Mere Christianity by C.S. Lewis and maybe pick up some G.K. Chesterton. He was an atheist at one time, iirc.
Also, Answers in Action has some articles and they are open to correspondence and any questions you might have. Perhaps you can email and ask THEM your question… I’m sure they’d be delighted to answer you.
Another helpful link here: http://www.triumphoftruth.com There are audio files of people who have converted to Catholicism from atheism and agnosticism sometimes with other faiths along the way. It chronicles why they chose Catholicism above other religions and other Christian faith traditions… and atheism.
I believe I’ve given you a fair amount of information and resources here… If you truly want to believe, then please take the time to read and examine what I’ve provided for you. They may be able to give you a more sound reason for believing than I can…
Hi Amber!
What does IMO mean?
Thanks for the reading suggestions! I get tired reading too and do not have nearly the free time I wish I had to read. But perhaps I will take a look.
I prefer a discussion though. Books don’t allow me to ask questions but I do appreciate their value. Learning is always a good thing!
This blog was meant as a challenge – I want to talk to believers that are certain their belief holds up logically. So far I have not seen a strong argument for any religion so I stay re-affirmed in my agnosticism until someone can ‘Save Me’ so to speak!
You, so far, have stuck it out pretty well! I hope you never take offense at my constant struggle to better myself and perhaps one day find the Lord.
Thank you for listening.
I consider you a friend.
imo = in my opinion
Books are going to be essential if you really want to learn solid reasons for faith. You must use the books to tap into the minds of people who have made history because of their clear understanding of the logic of faith. I didn’t come to be Catholic solely through discussion, but by forcing myself to make time to read… You might say I studied my way into the Catholic Church…
But, if you insist on discussion, I highly suggest contacting Answers in Action. They are there for people just like you who want to challenge faith and they are up for the challenge.
Another thought, however… You can find Mere Christianity on audio and might even be able to find a free download of it somewhere… I’m fairly certain you can do the same with much of Chesterton as well… and, of course, all of those conversion stories with audio as well. It’s easier than reading: listen in the car, on your mp3 player, etc.
See, you were taught it! I thought you said it was something that could not be taught.
Well, no matter. Yes, I will read more. And look into this Answers in Action. Did you give me a link to that?
And good idea about the audio. I ride my bike to work a lot with my iPod so that may work. I did that with Stephen Hawking’s a Brief History of Time. Worked pretty well but I managed to hear the same chapters over and over. When your iPod is on Shuffle it is pretty funny to hear a song, a song, then it talks about matter being converted to energy, song, song then how the Catholic church adopted the big bang theory because it fit with a beginning to existence then back to a song, etc. LOL! I had a good laugh on some of those rides!
You interest me when you say others have a clear understanding of the logic of their faith. I am assuming you mean clearer than you. It is as if you are giving up the logic for yourself and trusting that others have found good logic and therefore you do not need to. Maybe that is not what you are saying but it feels that way to me a bit. To me – I don’t think anyone should believe something until they themself have the logic of it tightly figured out. Sounds like you have more studying to do as do I.
Until then isn’t it best to remain undecided on the issue and continue studying?
hmmmm… I know it is faith for you but it seems like religion uses faith as a bandaide for anything that does not logically make sense in it. It is very much like a survival technique. That is that in order for religion to survive it had to come up with a way to deal with illogic that is a part of it. The technique it uses is faith. Just have faith regardless of your questions. Let go of logic and understanding just believe and you will feel released. And indeed when you do give up on logic there is a great release of tension because you don’t get into this intricate word play and detailed nit-picking and back and forth that naturally ensues when you try to think about religion logically. It is no wonder religious people feel great when they let go of reason and just decide to have faith. They put all the questions to rest and it is as if you had slipped into a soothing hot tub of faith or “full truth” or delusion?
Boy – I went off in a strange direction there! I am just thinking out loud.
Thanks again for listening!
Oh – that is all IMO!
See, you were taught it! I thought you said it was something that could not be taught.
Perhaps I didn’t say what I meant properly… Faith is separate from knowledge. There is a matter of being taught, obviously, but the gift of “faith”, that allows you to accept God, is a matter that goes deeper than just knowledge. Knowledge often brings about faith… but not for everyone and not always in a certain pattern or time frame. That is why there are people who can hear about Christianity for 30 years, know the Bible better than I do, reject it and wake up one day and suddenly have faith. This was the case with my own father. Faith goes beyond the knowledge and touches something within us that is difficult to explain.
And look into this Answers in Action. Did you give me a link to that?
Yes.
You interest me when you say others have a clear understanding of the logic of their faith. I am assuming you mean clearer than you… …Until then isn’t it best to remain undecided on the issue and continue studying?
Of course, I have more studying to do! We never stop learning. I am not emotional when it comes to my faith. I don’t have faith because of some “feel good” mentality. My faith IS logical. When I say that others have a clear understanding of the logic of their faith, it does not mean that I have doubts or that my faith is less logical or less clear. It simply means that they articulate it better than I do. (We’re talking here about some of the most brilliant minds in history versus me.) However, I have no reason to remain undecided because I’m NOT undecided. I have absolutely no doubt in the truth of my faith. This is not to say that I have no growing and learning to do, but I do so knowing that my faith is true and I grow and learn within that realm of truth.
hmmmm… I know it is faith for you but it seems like religion uses faith as a bandaide for anything that does not logically make sense in it.
This is merely your perception of things as an outsider looking in. I completely disagree where Catholicism is concerned because there are no contradictions between logic and faith. (Of course I believe this could be the case for some, such as 6-day creationists because they use “faith” to deny science, which is why I’m not one.) Faith and logic are not mutually exclusive, nor should they be. After all, if I believe that God is the Creator of all things, then He also created logic, reason and science. And if I believe that God is perfect, then his logic, reason and science cannot contradict with faith. In fact, it would make more sense that they encourage faith.
That is that in order for religion to survive it had to come up with a way to deal with illogic that is a part of it. The technique it uses is faith. Just have faith regardless of your questions. Let go of logic and understanding just believe and you will feel released. And indeed when you do give up on logic there is a great release of tension because you don’t get into this intricate word play and detailed nit-picking and back and forth that naturally ensues when you try to think about religion logically. It is no wonder religious people feel great when they let go of reason and just decide to have faith. They put all the questions to rest and it is as if you had slipped into a soothing hot tub of faith or “full truth” or delusion?
Again, this is merely your perception. This is not how I see it at all… The moment you give up on logic, faith no longer makes sense. If I gave up on logic, I would not have been able to convert to Catholicism. I would have remained comfortable in what I was raised with… Plus, faith is a choice. No one is forced to have faith (different from belief though we often use them synonymously) who doesn’t wish to and no one has faith unless they are convinced, which requires logic. Without reason and logic, one cannot possibly have a true faith. It is impossible to separate them. The reason “religious people feel great” is not at all because they’ve let go of reason but because their reason has allowed them to embrace faith. The peace comes in no longer having to be undecided.
So, what is this “faith” that you are given? How are those that it is given to chosen? It is deeper than knowledge. So it is better than knowledge? I really struggle with this. It sounds very vague. Did you ever ask your father what changed his mind? It sounds miraculous. And if there is no real criteria for it how do we know what force brings it to us? It seems great and wonderful but so does cocaine to an addict. There have been times in my life where I threw up my arms and said I allow God into my life, I will just believe! But nothing happened. Maybe I was too young. I am a skeptic. I am afraid to let go like that. Seems dangerous to just accept something…. How can I know it is the right thing to invest in? But yet you say it is logical but then why don’t I see the logic? If it were logical would it require faith? Seems like a contradiction. Maybe that is what you mean; you need to believe it regardless of this feeling. Let that feeling of doubt go and trust. Feels like being hypnotized. Allow yourself to accept the unacceptable.
I don’t know….
But then you say,
“The moment you give up on logic, faith no longer makes sense.”
So why is faith needed if it is logical? Does logic only get you part of the way? Then why can’t it go all the way? Why do you need any logic?
You raise a good question; why indeed were you not comfortable with what you were raised with?? And how was it logical that Christianity came from this uncomfortable-ness? How is it you were “convinced?” And why is it so hard for me to be convinced?
You said,
“Without reason and logic, one cannot possibly have a true faith.”
So, without reason and logic does it follow that there is fake faith? What is this “true faith” vs. fake faith? Sounds like you are saying true faith is a result of making reasonable, logical decisions. Then the logic I am using should be easily rejected. Why then do all believers give up discussing my logical points and tell me it is a matter of faith? Why are my specific, logical points not exposed for their illogic?
So many questions your statements raise…
And then you said,
“The reason “religious people feel great” is not at all because they’ve let go of reason but because their reason has allowed them to embrace faith. The peace comes in no longer having to be undecided.”
Yes, I would agree. Peace comes from no longer having to be undecided. There is stress inherent in being undecided. And yes, they feel better when they embrace faith. You really do not see how this can calm a person whether the truth of what they believe is true or not? It is a form of meditation. Relax your mind and all your concerns stop the questions and ideas. I feel better just thinking about it! The fact is that it is a known natural way to make a person feel better. Just tell the mind to concentrate on something else. Let go of all your concerns.
Ohhhhhhmmmm…. It does feel better…
Sounds alot like prayer.
hmmmm… coincidence?